Lyn Ayre & Tonie Silver ~ A Rebelle Rendezvous
4 August 2008
T: Hi Lyn, & welcome to LPR~
L: Thanks so much, Tonie, it's great to be here on such a sunny summer day.
T: You teach Natural & Botanical Perfumery; tell us about what kind of students you're seeing.
L: My course is called "Natural Perfumery ~ a path to the Heart of Spirit". Coeur d'Esprit means "heart of Spirit". This course involves working with spirit energy and being in touch with the spirit of the plant while making perfumes. When students inquire about the course, this aspect is often brought up as people find the concept very attractive. For me, it is not about mimicking what has already been done in the marketplace. It is not about making French perfumes or becoming a commercial perfumer (French or otherwise) or even a "nose". It is about connecting to our inner spirit, connecting to the spirit of the plant, then using perfume to connect to our higher self in a safe and pleasing way. It is a gentle course with no pressure to win or succeed or be the best. It is fine to just go along and learn at your own pace and become more of who you were meant to be. My students come from all walks of life. They are teachers, students, spa-worker, a nun, an artist, an Aromatherapist, a retired senior, world traveller, someone looking for a new career in perfumery, and so on, ages 22 to 78, from Canada, US, Australia, France, and so on. Some have worked with the essences for years and others have only always wanted to.When they first contact me, they are each asked to write a letter of introduction detailing why they would like to take this course on perfumery, how they came to find me, and what they hope to get out of the course. The essays are poignant, exciting, hopeful, and as varied as the people who write them. They are required as a starting point so that the student can see, in black and white, what they are about to do and evaluate whether or not they would like to proceed. It seems to me that all kinds of people are interested in learning more about Natural Perfumery.
T: Nature/Nurture: How important is the education side of the art? Are there certain nuances that you feel simply cannot be taught?
L: I am a teacher by nature, as well as a life-long student of my personal passions; writing, art, music, and all the gifts from Mother earth, which, of course, includes perfume. Teaching this course was a natural progression, for me, from all the learning I'd done to that point. My passion carried me forward to become the independent perfumer I am today. I am self-taught, nurtured by the thousands of perfumers who have gone before me, the hundreds of writers who have written about perfume, the dozens of perfumes I have created, and the feedback I've received from my clients. I did the work, and part of the work involved writing this course so I could make sense of what I'd learned so far about perfume. I put in my time, all the while seeking a mentor but found no one. What I did find were a group of people who were in constant competition for their place in the sun and who wanted to wield power and control over others. This is not something I am into as I don't believe in competing with anyone. I wish I'd have had the benefit of an affordable correspondence course like mine but there wasn't one to be found. So I wrote it. LOL (big grin). For some people, formal training is key, and the structure of a course, such as mine, is required. Others learn best when they are propelled by their own steam with little input from teachers. Still others enjoy the one-on-one or a classroom situation. Learning is a personal journey that each of us must make, as we will. I offer opportunities for learning with as little or as much input as the student needs, always willing to answer questions and make suggestions. In the end, should they complete the twenty-six assignments, send along sixteen samples for evaluation, and write the proctored exam of fifty-six questions, they will have earned a Certificate of Completion for their efforts of personal dedication and commitment to the craft. I don't "create Natural Perfumers" rather people grow themselves into that way of being in the world, should they choose and should this be something they want for themselves.We each bring to the table a variety of inherent gifts. We can all sing but we don't all have a voice that is pleasing to others. This does not mean we shouldn't sing. Some of us have a great ear for music but not all of us are musicians, composers, or conductors. We can all take photographs but that does not mean they will end up in the National Geographic. The thing that sets one of us apart from another, in a particular endeavour, is the passion that is lit in us when we are first exposed to the topic matter. If something resonates with us on a spiritual level, then it becomes our passion. This passion gives us energy to pursue that which feeds and nourishes us. Spaces open up in our minds and in our hearts that allow room for an extraordinary amount of knowledge to be gathered, sorted through, and put into practice. I know that at some point, a student may decide they want to take this course, and may actually go ahead and purchase it, but not pursue it because they lack the energy of passion to carry them forward through all the hard work and learning. Should they have a passion for perfume, they will also have instilled within them all the finesse they need to create beautiful aromas with the all nuances present to create life's great tapestry, however that unfolds.
T: Tell LPR readers what you teach your students about suppliers; in my experience, the dish is only as good as the ingredients. Do you believe a good, trusting relationship with your supplier is important?
L: In Project twenty-five, students are asked to write out their Ethics, Mission Statement, and Personal Credo, including their philosophies on life. They need to do their homework, developing ethical guidelines that will take them through the pitfalls they may encounter during this journey of finding their own trusted suppliers in the area in which they live and abroad. They need to learn how to trust their nose and speak their heart when they are unhappy. In the meantime, they are given my "Trusted Suppliers List" in their manual. It is also located on my links page on the website. These suppliers ship to Canada and the US; many ship overseas, as well. My Australian students have their own list they have gleaned over time. My list is not complete and is constantly being refined as I go about my daily round. It is important that I have a trusting relationship with my suppliers and that they follow through with what has been agreed. If they don't, they risk losing my trust and are not put on the up-dated list. The companies on my list have a variety of good qualities: they are environmentally conscious, don't approve of animal testing, are cruelty-free, have a generous heart and donate to worthy causes, don't have a minimum order amount, include free samples, and some sell organic or certified organic ingredients. Their product is top of the line and I've not yet been unhappy with the dozens of items I've purchased from any of them. Also included on the list are those that supply cosmetic ingredients, containers, waterproof labels, boxes, and bottles. These companies resonate with me and hold similar values to my own, so I am happy to support them.
T: Lyn, please give readers a skeleton of your curriculum.
L: Yes, of course... Here is the Table of Contents
Preliminaries, Processes, & Introductions
Section One
The psychology and physiology of how we detect aroma
The four mediums for carrying a perfume
The precautions for using these highly concentrated botanical ingredients
Shelf-life and storage of oils
Working with Spirit Energy
Data Tags
Dilutions
Methods of Extraction
Perfumery terms
Music by any other name would be called perfume. Learning the notes.
What are Horizontal and Vertical Accords
Building Accords
Section Two
Learn about seven base notes
Fixatives
Describing a Perfume
Scent Profiling
Descriptive words
Setting up your atelier
Your safety
Section Three
Learn about seven Heart Notes
Body Chemistry and Skin Types
Rate of Evaporation and Odor Intensity
Fragrance Families
Section Four
Learn about seven Head Notes
Formulation
Formulation Sheet
Section Five
Creating tinctures, infusions, and macerations
Creating scent similars
Scent Songs - the work of Piesse
Perfumes from the inside ou
Colour of essential oils
Section Six
Create perfumes in all four bases
Perfume pyramid
What's in a name
Questions & answers
How to market yourself and your product
Resources & References
Review of Suppliers
Completing this course
Perfume Projects
T: What's the best advice that you feel you offer your students Lyn?
L: Determine what your ethics are and stick to them. Create a safe work environment so you can do perfumery for the long-term. Create safe perfumes and remember we are dealing with very powerful substances.Stay curious and open to new learning and opportunities.
T: Best perfumery advice you ever received?
L: I've not yet had the blessing of a Mentor and no one around to teach me other than the books I've read and my own diligent research and practice. But I take all of the advice I've given to my students (as above).
T: Tell us how you marry the business side of perfumery with the art.
L: It's one and the same to me. There is an art of making good perfumes and an art of dealing with people in a business sense. In both cases, I ground to Gaia and connect to Source, becoming a channel of energy flowing into the situation and watching it unfold before me. I know this may sound goofy to a lot of people but it is how I've operated my whole life. For 23 years, I did Credit & Collections. Most people loved to hear from me, and put our company at the top of their payables list, as I never made them feel bad about themselves. I knew that most people wanted to pay their bills and if I was pleasant and present, I could help them to do that (some didn't and they got re-poed). I worked for a few different companies and in each case, the receivables went to a good place. In the last position I had before I was 'downsized' (due to MS and Lupus), I took the receivables from 170 days to 96% current. You don't get results like that by treating people like poorly. It's the same in any business: create a set of ethical business practices and stick to them. That's what I do in the perfume realm when I'm dealing with suppliers, customers, and students.
T: Thanx Lyn~ You've got a great Coeur d'Esprit!
Showing posts with label natural perfume education. Show all posts
Showing posts with label natural perfume education. Show all posts
Monday, March 21, 2011
Saturday, March 12, 2011
NBP Education
A Note from Lisa Camasi, Botanical Perfumer
If you want to take a class, any class, do a little homework first and make sure that the class you take will serve your needs, interests and budget, and will deliver on its promises.
ASK A FEW QUESTIONS:- What are the instructor's credentials, experience, and reputation, professionally and otherwise? If s/he has formal credentials, are they in a relevant field? Are they from a reputable institution? If the instructor points to experience and a varied selection of "one off" courses, one on one instruction/ mentorship/ apprenticeship with another perfumer or perfumers, who are they, and what are their credentials, what is their professional lineage? If the instructor is self taught, how did s/he pursue their studies, and how did s/he arrive at the conclusion that s/he had acquired sufficient knowledge that s/he feels qualified to teach a professional course and charge a professional fee? Is s/he published?
- Can references/recommendations be provided from former students?
- What books/literature is used to support the class, and what is the additional recommended reading?
- What are the educational objectives of the course - what will you have learned and be able to do after the class that you could not do before the class? How will they be achieved? Is there a syllabus from this or previous similar classes that you can view to evaluate whether the course will meet your interests, skill level, and needs?
- Think about how you learn best. Some people do very well reading from books, some prefer lots of graphics and pictures, and still others absorb information best through auditory input and verbal exchanges. Will this class be presented in a way that is suitably accessible to you and your learning style? I have a good friend who is a university lecturer in New Zealand, and one of the courses she teaches is a distance course. It is at the graduate level, and because the focus of the course is in support of the literature survey the students need to conduct for their MA theses in Linguistics, it works pretty well, but she said she can't imagine teaching any of her other courses because so much critical learning happens in the face to face exchange of weekly seminars and working collaboratively on research and data.
- Consider all the available courses and resources in the context of what you want, what you need, and what you can afford. Look for a class that will teach you skills that allow you to continue learning when the class is over, and leave you feeling empowered and encouraged to do so - rather than enslaved to an expert who claims to hold the key to the vault that safeguards the secrets of the ancient art.
If you're able to spend many hundreds of dollars for an online course, why not spend a couple hundred more and get the benefit of learning perfumery "in the style of the French perfumers" from *actual* French perfumers - ones with the training, experience, materials, facilities and professional acumen to make it worth your while and worth your hard earned money!! (Not to mention the pleasure of spending a week in the heart of Grasse!) There are other classes - Sunrose Aromatics has hosted classes with Gail Adrian in the past, and Linda at the Perfumer's Apprentice is an excellent resource as well.http://www.perfumer sapprentice.com/perfumersworkshop/
DO A LITTLE RESEARCH:- Polish your bloody google, yahoo, dogpile skills. Be willing to dive down a few rabbit holes as you follow the links within links. have found some of the most useful and relevant information this way - as well as some wonderful and wonderfully obscure materials.
- Don't rely entirely on the internet, and remember that it is still largely unregulated and there is as much unreliable information as there is factual and useful information.
- Check out a few books at the library, and if your local library doesn't have what you want, ask if they can get it for you through inter library loan. If you live near a university, especially a public one, see if they provide library privileges to the local community -most do! You will be able to gain access to books through the university that are unlikely to be available any other way -especially out of print books.
- Safety... Don't rely on IFRA exclusively for this information, it's not reliable! Read the MSDS for your materials and take a little time and familiarize yourself with Pub Med http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ sites/entrez/you will get much more reliable information and you will learn a lot more about your materials!- There are a bunch of sites that will provide hours and hours of reading (tons of useful information) about naturals and their chemical components, as well as synthetics and compounds - here are a few of myfavorites:http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/http://www.leffingwell.com/http://www.bojensen.net/http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/
Bookmark these sites and spend some time following the links and becoming familiar with the information (and additional links/resources) they provide. Most vendors well known on this list (Eden Botanicals, Natures Gift, Sunrose Aromatics, White Lotus) also have copious amounts of information and links on their sites. I am sure others here could add many more but this is a start.
- Whatever you do, don't believe the assertion that making perfumes using aroma chemicals is the same as using naturals and that you can learn everything you need to know in a class that only covers naturals!! There is a lot of overlap in general technique, but if you are going to use aromachems, do yourself (and your pocket book) a favor and, as is good practice with naturals, learn how to use them effectively and safely. Aromachems can be very unstable and sensitive to degradation due to light and temperature, they often require solvents other than alcohol, there are compounds as well as individual aroma chemicals and the dilutions at which you would use them varies wildly.
CHECK OUT SOME OTHER GROUPS:- Give your chemophobia a rest (and brace yourself for the equally irrational and perverse chemophelia you will encounter) and bring an open mind! While I do not personally use aroma chemicals or synthetics, my time on these lists has definitely honed my skills and technique, and has made me look at naturals with a renewed interest in their active chemical components and infused my creative efforts with much needed precision, analysis and discipline: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/perfumemaking/Perfume Making is Jenny's group, there's a wealth of informative files and links, and she has put together a couple of excellent power point presentations. Discussion is lively, enthusiastic and fairly ad hoc, though Jenny is great about introducing specific topics and questions, and generating more focused discussions as well.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mfd_ of_perfumes/Manufacture and Design of Perfumes is Jo's group, and has more of a collaborative classroom format. Class sessions might focus on a discussion of a half dozen materials (natural and synthetic), a pop quiz on some aspect of the history of perfume, or a discussion with exercises on fixation, tincturing or solvents.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EarlyPerfume/Early perfumes is Sally's group, and focuses on more academic and early historical creation and use of perfume and scent. She has written an excellent book and is extremely knowledgeable.
- Regardless of the group(s) you join, once there, spend some time digging through the archives. This will give you an idea of the range of topics that have been discussed, answer lots of questions before you have formed them, and will make the questions you do ask once you join the discussion more specific and useful. Do this with any group you join but especially one that has been around for a while or has substantial archives - hell - join NP and mine those archives (if they have not been deleted or selectively culled for the exclusive reference of the owner.) The first couple years of posts on that group are a wealth of information from some VERY talented and accomplished perfumers (including industry professionals incognito) who have long since moved on, weary of all the drama and politics that can hijack the best of groups.
- Be willing to put in the time with your materials - books are excellent references, and lectures can be tremendously informative, but nothing, and I mean *NOTHING* takes the place of sitting down and actively working with the materials: experimenting, formulating, blending, evaluating, sharing, reformulating. .. the hours and days and weeks you spend actively engaged in working with aromatics will be the real education. Everything else - books, research, discussions, groups, lectures - they are all optional.
- Work with your materials in dilution - it will save you unimaginable amounts of money and will give you a better sense of how your perfume is developing as you create it. I personally recommend using 5-10% dilutions of most absolutes and 10-50% dilutions of eo's - it depends on the odor intensity of the material you are working with. Create your formula using these dilutions first, then add sufficient alcohol to bring it to the appropriate strength (parfume, EDP, EDC, etc.)
- Invest in a scale sensitive to a hundredth of a gram, and learn to use it - you will get infinitely more precise and reproducible results if you do! Jen at lotioncrafter has a decent selection as well as a useful comparison you can read to help you decide which one you want.http://www.lotioncr after.com/store/Scales-Accessories-c-262.html
Ebay is also a great resource for equipment, from lab glass to ultrasonic cleaners/baths to use in tincturing and as an aid in finishing/melding dilutions and perfumes.
- Form a local study group, or find a couple local partners in crime. Swap perfumes, offer each other feedback, collaborate on a perfume,or a collection of scented balms, or put together a tincturing/infusing workshop. It builds community and supports your habit, and happens to be a lot of fun to boot.
- Try a variety of materials, from a variety of vendors and regions. All lavenders/vetivers/ lemons/roses are not created equal, nor are the aromatics that are derived from them.
- Don't limit the development of your nose to the perfumer's organ! Take a wine tasting course. Learn to cook outside your comfort zone - take an Indian, Mediterranean, Asian cooking class. Plant a fragrant garden. All of these will propel you along the path of training your senses inform your work with aromatic materials. Last, but most certainly not least - don't be afraid to think for yourself. The more stridently anyone insists that *they* are the expert and that *you* need the training or information they are selling, the more you ought to slow down, look around, and consider all your options first. If you think this is useful information - please feel free to forward it to aspiring students, post to other lists, blogs, etc.
Happy perfuming!
Lisa
If you want to take a class, any class, do a little homework first and make sure that the class you take will serve your needs, interests and budget, and will deliver on its promises.
ASK A FEW QUESTIONS:- What are the instructor's credentials, experience, and reputation, professionally and otherwise? If s/he has formal credentials, are they in a relevant field? Are they from a reputable institution? If the instructor points to experience and a varied selection of "one off" courses, one on one instruction/ mentorship/ apprenticeship with another perfumer or perfumers, who are they, and what are their credentials, what is their professional lineage? If the instructor is self taught, how did s/he pursue their studies, and how did s/he arrive at the conclusion that s/he had acquired sufficient knowledge that s/he feels qualified to teach a professional course and charge a professional fee? Is s/he published?
- Can references/recommendations be provided from former students?
- What books/literature is used to support the class, and what is the additional recommended reading?
- What are the educational objectives of the course - what will you have learned and be able to do after the class that you could not do before the class? How will they be achieved? Is there a syllabus from this or previous similar classes that you can view to evaluate whether the course will meet your interests, skill level, and needs?
- Think about how you learn best. Some people do very well reading from books, some prefer lots of graphics and pictures, and still others absorb information best through auditory input and verbal exchanges. Will this class be presented in a way that is suitably accessible to you and your learning style? I have a good friend who is a university lecturer in New Zealand, and one of the courses she teaches is a distance course. It is at the graduate level, and because the focus of the course is in support of the literature survey the students need to conduct for their MA theses in Linguistics, it works pretty well, but she said she can't imagine teaching any of her other courses because so much critical learning happens in the face to face exchange of weekly seminars and working collaboratively on research and data.
- Consider all the available courses and resources in the context of what you want, what you need, and what you can afford. Look for a class that will teach you skills that allow you to continue learning when the class is over, and leave you feeling empowered and encouraged to do so - rather than enslaved to an expert who claims to hold the key to the vault that safeguards the secrets of the ancient art.
If you're able to spend many hundreds of dollars for an online course, why not spend a couple hundred more and get the benefit of learning perfumery "in the style of the French perfumers" from *actual* French perfumers - ones with the training, experience, materials, facilities and professional acumen to make it worth your while and worth your hard earned money!! (Not to mention the pleasure of spending a week in the heart of Grasse!) There are other classes - Sunrose Aromatics has hosted classes with Gail Adrian in the past, and Linda at the Perfumer's Apprentice is an excellent resource as well.http://www.perfumer sapprentice.com/perfumersworkshop/
DO A LITTLE RESEARCH:- Polish your bloody google, yahoo, dogpile skills. Be willing to dive down a few rabbit holes as you follow the links within links. have found some of the most useful and relevant information this way - as well as some wonderful and wonderfully obscure materials.
- Don't rely entirely on the internet, and remember that it is still largely unregulated and there is as much unreliable information as there is factual and useful information.
- Check out a few books at the library, and if your local library doesn't have what you want, ask if they can get it for you through inter library loan. If you live near a university, especially a public one, see if they provide library privileges to the local community -most do! You will be able to gain access to books through the university that are unlikely to be available any other way -especially out of print books.
- Safety... Don't rely on IFRA exclusively for this information, it's not reliable! Read the MSDS for your materials and take a little time and familiarize yourself with Pub Med http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ sites/entrez/you will get much more reliable information and you will learn a lot more about your materials!- There are a bunch of sites that will provide hours and hours of reading (tons of useful information) about naturals and their chemical components, as well as synthetics and compounds - here are a few of myfavorites:http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/http://www.leffingwell.com/http://www.bojensen.net/http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/
Bookmark these sites and spend some time following the links and becoming familiar with the information (and additional links/resources) they provide. Most vendors well known on this list (Eden Botanicals, Natures Gift, Sunrose Aromatics, White Lotus) also have copious amounts of information and links on their sites. I am sure others here could add many more but this is a start.
- Whatever you do, don't believe the assertion that making perfumes using aroma chemicals is the same as using naturals and that you can learn everything you need to know in a class that only covers naturals!! There is a lot of overlap in general technique, but if you are going to use aromachems, do yourself (and your pocket book) a favor and, as is good practice with naturals, learn how to use them effectively and safely. Aromachems can be very unstable and sensitive to degradation due to light and temperature, they often require solvents other than alcohol, there are compounds as well as individual aroma chemicals and the dilutions at which you would use them varies wildly.
CHECK OUT SOME OTHER GROUPS:- Give your chemophobia a rest (and brace yourself for the equally irrational and perverse chemophelia you will encounter) and bring an open mind! While I do not personally use aroma chemicals or synthetics, my time on these lists has definitely honed my skills and technique, and has made me look at naturals with a renewed interest in their active chemical components and infused my creative efforts with much needed precision, analysis and discipline: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/perfumemaking/Perfume Making is Jenny's group, there's a wealth of informative files and links, and she has put together a couple of excellent power point presentations. Discussion is lively, enthusiastic and fairly ad hoc, though Jenny is great about introducing specific topics and questions, and generating more focused discussions as well.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mfd_ of_perfumes/Manufacture and Design of Perfumes is Jo's group, and has more of a collaborative classroom format. Class sessions might focus on a discussion of a half dozen materials (natural and synthetic), a pop quiz on some aspect of the history of perfume, or a discussion with exercises on fixation, tincturing or solvents.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EarlyPerfume/Early perfumes is Sally's group, and focuses on more academic and early historical creation and use of perfume and scent. She has written an excellent book and is extremely knowledgeable.
- Regardless of the group(s) you join, once there, spend some time digging through the archives. This will give you an idea of the range of topics that have been discussed, answer lots of questions before you have formed them, and will make the questions you do ask once you join the discussion more specific and useful. Do this with any group you join but especially one that has been around for a while or has substantial archives - hell - join NP and mine those archives (if they have not been deleted or selectively culled for the exclusive reference of the owner.) The first couple years of posts on that group are a wealth of information from some VERY talented and accomplished perfumers (including industry professionals incognito) who have long since moved on, weary of all the drama and politics that can hijack the best of groups.
- Be willing to put in the time with your materials - books are excellent references, and lectures can be tremendously informative, but nothing, and I mean *NOTHING* takes the place of sitting down and actively working with the materials: experimenting, formulating, blending, evaluating, sharing, reformulating. .. the hours and days and weeks you spend actively engaged in working with aromatics will be the real education. Everything else - books, research, discussions, groups, lectures - they are all optional.
- Work with your materials in dilution - it will save you unimaginable amounts of money and will give you a better sense of how your perfume is developing as you create it. I personally recommend using 5-10% dilutions of most absolutes and 10-50% dilutions of eo's - it depends on the odor intensity of the material you are working with. Create your formula using these dilutions first, then add sufficient alcohol to bring it to the appropriate strength (parfume, EDP, EDC, etc.)
- Invest in a scale sensitive to a hundredth of a gram, and learn to use it - you will get infinitely more precise and reproducible results if you do! Jen at lotioncrafter has a decent selection as well as a useful comparison you can read to help you decide which one you want.http://www.lotioncr after.com/store/Scales-Accessories-c-262.html
Ebay is also a great resource for equipment, from lab glass to ultrasonic cleaners/baths to use in tincturing and as an aid in finishing/melding dilutions and perfumes.
- Form a local study group, or find a couple local partners in crime. Swap perfumes, offer each other feedback, collaborate on a perfume,or a collection of scented balms, or put together a tincturing/infusing workshop. It builds community and supports your habit, and happens to be a lot of fun to boot.
- Try a variety of materials, from a variety of vendors and regions. All lavenders/vetivers/ lemons/roses are not created equal, nor are the aromatics that are derived from them.
- Don't limit the development of your nose to the perfumer's organ! Take a wine tasting course. Learn to cook outside your comfort zone - take an Indian, Mediterranean, Asian cooking class. Plant a fragrant garden. All of these will propel you along the path of training your senses inform your work with aromatic materials. Last, but most certainly not least - don't be afraid to think for yourself. The more stridently anyone insists that *they* are the expert and that *you* need the training or information they are selling, the more you ought to slow down, look around, and consider all your options first. If you think this is useful information - please feel free to forward it to aspiring students, post to other lists, blogs, etc.
Happy perfuming!
Lisa
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